During my last stay in Mysuru in 1999 I shared all of my doubts with a friend. And then on the logistic or the sort of material front, there is a group thats in formation and I think its called the Amayu collective. And not with cover-up. www.matthewremski.com/wordpress/karen-rain-speaks-about-pattabhi-jois-and-recovering-from-sexual-and-spiritual-abuse-video-interview/. Like I bring up the metaphor in the book that if you broke a persons leg and there they were on the ground, you wouldnt blame them for not running away from you as you came in to damage them further. Required fields are marked *. Thanks for your response, Katchie Ananda. And so I think its unfortunate that I already had a name coming into this particular work, that I carried the baggage of past work with me. Prior to that, I was a Hausdorff Postdoc at the Hausdorff Center for MathematicsLink opens in a new window at the University of Bonn and a member of Prof Karl-Theodor SturmLink opens in a new windows group on Stochastic and Geometric Analysis at the Institute for Applied MathematicsLink opens in a new window. What all of the 16 women who gave their testimony for my book I describe is that you know, they werent people to him. . He was able to publish their testimonies. And so from this one gym which was set up by the Maharaja Wodiyar in 1934, we have two of the pillars of the modern yoga evangelical movement. And the format was quite broad. SIGN UP; . Opportunistic. Talk about whats going on in Yoga land, uh, whats problematic about it and what might be some ways that things can be remedied. Previously, I was a postdoctoral fellow in the Laboratoire Jacques-Louis Lions at Sorbonne Universit with Prof Ugo Boscain and a member of the Inria Paris team CAGE. It happens to people who arent educated at all. Thats not safe for the people who come to your studio. whether for the first time I have not explored that link but after all that has happened I think we need to make modern Ashtanga Yoga a guru free zone. Division of Ecology, Evolution and Marine Biology, Santa Barbara, CA 93106 I finally, because I could passively listen, got caught up with the history and circumstances of the assaults with this interview. Gregor. She was like, What do you mean it wasnt sexual? And they had some explanation about Shaktipat or spiritual transmission. And in Yoga at large, I know yoga is kind of like the wild, wild west of, industries. Thank you, Karen Rain, and Gregor Maehle. And that it was going to stand in the way of her spiritual development or something like that. You know, I think the whole notion of the veneration of the photograph is so difficult for so many people because there was an intensity with which he would gaze at them or they would gaze at him. Right. I have lots of friends in the Ashtanga Yoga world. Some of our audience is definitely going to be familiar with the names in terms of that you just mentioned, but theres, theres probably a yogic un-literate audience, right, that is listening too, so can you put Ashtanga on the map and then put Pattabhi Jois in relationship to Ashtanga on the map in that? One woman commenting on my last post signed off with #gurufreezone. We have 24 records for Karen Haberman ranging in age from 39 years old to 79 years old. I thought that that part in the book was great. PS This post is only a fragment of what needs to be said but I hope to be addressing all that later down the track. Current address 81693 Camino El Triunfo, Indio, CA 92203 $1,760: B. And so the assaults actually took place in plain view of everybody, but under the auspices or under this this story that he was adjusting people, that he was helping students attain postures that they couldnt otherwise attain or even more kind of deceptively, and I would say creepily, that his touch was conveying some kind of spiritual knowledge. And its something that Yoga Alliance may adopt in part, not because I wrote it or anything, but because its in the air now theyre doing a renovation of their standards after 19 years. Again, I am really sorry that all of this happened and that it damaged you and other women so much. 8 Critical Problems in Modern Yoga, and How to Work with Them, Hes probably BKS Iyengars most famous, most prominent, most senior student, and the one who most embodies his own teaching persona, Michael Roach of the Asian Classics Institute, solo truth and reconciliation tear on his blog, The Embodiment Conference and Beyond: A Trauma-Aware Call to Healing [Guest Post], Trump Eating Poison is a Sacrament of Charismatic Escalation, During COVID-19, Charles Eisenstein Invites You to Think Deeply About His Awesome Writing. So just to say that this is a style where unlike a typical led class: if someone were to go to a regular yoga studio or a gym and the teacher would sort of take them through a sequence, talking them through, maybe adjusting at times but in the Mysore system, students show up quite early in the morning. And so I didnt actually you asked the question and I didnt want to go on a rant about . 2 Ditonton. Right. As Im listening to you, Im imagining the listener that may not be familiar with the Mysore style of practice. Sometimes as early as 4, 4:30 AM. I think we have to then wonder what it means for his senior students and how they present asana or yoga practice to the world now. Karen got 74. And theyre not following a led series of instructions from the teacher. The first chapter was going to be an examination of the interview data of senior students of Mr Iyengar. Yoga. This journal arises as an outcome of the Centre for But one of the things that has come up for me and trying to talk about it with these hosts and these other studios is, its hard to escape a little bit the idea of or the dynamic of virtue signaling, where you kind of come off pious or sanctimonious: Look, you have this photograph up and youre silencing victims and doing your part of an institutional enablement. And then she just counts up the years she counts up the tours. Thank you to Josh Summers for interviewing me about Practice and All is Coming. According to her family tree, she married Jimmy D. Golson on July 6, 1987 in Texas . And Im appalled at myself in a way, that I kinda joked along like, ha ha, like this is just a spiritual I dont understand it because Im not far enough along to even perceive it myself or to see the value of it, to see how important it is when its just bad shit. That might happen privately in therapy later, but what happens is, and I can hear it in that quote, is that the notion of victim is turned into a kind of psychological state instead of a label for somebody against whom a crime has been committed. Get started U.S. Yearbooks Name Index, 1890-1979. Heres to continued improvement. And then on the other side of it, its like anybody who asks, why did Karen Rain keep going back to get assaulted by Pattabhi Jois every, every year doesnt know anything about trauma, doesnt know anything about domestic violence, doesnt know anything about a trauma bond, doesnt know anything about being gaslighted. Without him, theres no adjustment protocol. There were people who would say that. And just to be really explicit about it: you document this in your book, but what were the adjustments that were abusive? HABERMAN, Karen Advanced heart disease took her swiftly and unexpectedly and far too soon. Read writing from Karen Rain on Medium. The Debates in Post-Development and Degrowth Journal, published by Tvergastein, is an academic journal dealing with debates and works focused on advancing postdevelopment & degrowth thought. Okay. Includes Address(4) Phone(1) The reason why Im writing this is because there is still an emperor with no clothes in Mysuru. So youve sort of discussed a little bit about the spiritual interpretation and reframe of a lot of this behavior. Reflecting back now on Mysuru (new de-colonialized name for Mysore) it was a classic example of The Emperor and His New Clothes. Karen Rain (pictured) says Ashtanga yoga guru Pattabhi sexually assaulted her and other women while she studied with him in Mysore, India, in the mid 1990s. On 03/21/2018 KAREN SHARON HABERMAN filed a Personal Injury - Motor Vehicle court case against MICHAEL LEIDNER in Los Angeles County Superior Courts. Join Facebook to connect with Karen Haberman and others you may know. Its more like Indian anti-colonial activists in the 1920s and 1930s wanted to indigenize physical culture influences from Europe. Im happy to hear that. And I found it very weird for a so-called therapeutic practice that people came to for spiritual benefit, but they also seem to be working themselves really hard in. And in the Ashtanga world, you couldnt say around the breakfast table at Mysore: He sexually assaulted me. And it was probably widely known within the upper echelons of the Ashtanga world, even into, even as early as 2012 but of course, we now know it was far earlier than that. Karen Haberman. Is it about the fact that your voice froze when you wanted to say No? View Public Record Results ✓ Addresses. More importantly I think there needs to be a disclaimer that Sharath has any form of guru status, that he knows our bodies better than we do. You can download the mp3 here. Thats like a bad apple and a whole bunch of people saying, No, this is great. Like, this is not a regulated profession. I dont say that he was the source of the explanations, but I also, I dont think Im explicit enough in saying that its pretty likely that he wasnt. Your email address will not be published. And so thats really cool. Also known as Karen H Haberman, K Rain. So objectification was a felt reality by the women who he assaulted. How is the community both within Ashtanga and th yoga community outside of Ashtanga receiving this? And also so earth shattering is that you know he doesnt phrase it this way but the research as he lays it out basically says what we have believed about the modern posture, about the modern yoga movement is mostly deceptive. What was it about the Ashtanga situation itself that made you want to put it in the forefront of your case study in the book? And, we can throw him out but keep, keep this very valuable and integral practice intact. She had disappeared! I mean it didnt have to be me. Your email address will not be published. I found them very valuable and will continue to read all. I want to contribute to your healing by providing a safe space in which you can come forward and express all this. But anyway, their list of the things that you can do is all laid out for you. But we dont have any evidence that physical adjustments in yoga existed prior to the 1920s. In Joiss circumstance it becomes really complicated because one of the things that the Ashtanga world has prided itself on for the last 30 years is the sense that the teacher is able to learn and know about the student intimately because they are having personal interactions with them multiple times per morning, every morning, six mornings per week, two hours per session, two days off per month. Well actually, you know, I just want to interject too, is that the people that Im in contact with, that had said that actually have read the book and have actually completely changed their tune. Hopemissema. The year when you left, 1998, I wasnt there. Theres this sense that you and the teacher are alone and there are people who absolutely love and they thrive on that and theres no reason they shouldnt. mike vernon royal household; are there snakes in gran canaria; shooting in laurel, md yesterday. And I also thought that it would rock the foundations of the broader yoga world because Jois is incredibly influential. On file we have 38 email addresses and 35 phone numbers associated with Karen in area codes such as 256, 608, 541, 970, 909, and 13 other area codes. Gregor Maehle interviewed by Alvise Vianello, On Mudras, Tantric Meditation and teaching, Adam Keen interviews Gregor on Yoga for Mental Health. The thing that listeners need to know is that theres ample video and photographic evidence documenting all of this. But look, its been great. He is the author of eight books of poetry, fiction, and non-fiction including Threads of Yoga: A Remix of Patanjalis Sutras. Thank you so much Gregor Maehle for your beautiful, honest, insightful and heartfelt response to my interview. Its great that these things are finally brought out in the open and that the myth of the infallible, adorable guru is pierced. Right. So thats moving slowly. I know its tough sledding. Well, modern yoga ashtanga practitioners or Jois method practitioners from America and Europe have started using the word parampara to describe what they belong to. This site hosts over 200 original posts on current affairs in modern global yoga and Buddhist culture. And so I just was terrified of the implications of what I was hearing and I resisted it for a long time actually. Lets not start talking about the chakras. I had two similar smaller occurrences when the girls in question simply smiled at me, shook their heads and walked on. But it implies this unbroken, usually familial, certainly intimate relational transfer of knowledge that depends on a whole series of social commitments and contracts in order to keep it stable. And thats a really good thing. . Heres another example. I mean, thats just, thats basic adulting for one thing. Opportunistic. Theres a huge spectrum and theres kind of a line in the sand as it were, of that spectrum between people who identify as Ashtanga practitioners and people who dont. So theres something in there called the PRISM method. You have no idea what was going on in Chogyam Trungpas head, you have no idea what, what the inner life of Bikram Choudhury is like. Copyright Chintamani 2015-2021. But I also want to say that, you know, the notion that the notion that people should be liberated somehow in the way in which they conceive of their sexuality within yoga is part of yogas appeal actually. And teachers like you and Monica Gauci and others are much more deserving of the label Ashtanga (8 limbed) Yoga teachers. We know that Karen M. (Haberman) Golson had been residing in Texas . I would acknowledge it. They all openly talk about how, Oh yeah, he blew out my knee and he was doing this, but I got the posture or he led me towards a more advanced position in the series or something like that. Right? We know that Karen's political affiliation is currently a registered Democrat; ethnicity is Caucasian; and religious views are listed as Christian. Rainfall totals from July 1 through March 1, along with average yearly rainfall: Arroyo Grande - 24.33 inches to date - average 14.09 inches. Privacy Policy| Terms & Conditions. And that is about to get checked. Is it about the fact that you went that morning? Matthew Remski writes and presents on yoga and ayurveda in the shadows of capitalism and climate change. So as a cultural critic, as Ive reported on various abuse stories, the Anusara implosion, the Jivamukti lawsuit, the Satyananda Yoga thing, Shambhala, Rigpa As Ive done that work, Ive made a lot of allies and Ive made a lot of enemies. You know, theres one comment saying, You know lot of people are going to say youre a very brave person sometime in the future. Fast forward six years later, she republishes her blog. The only phone number that . Hopemissema. So you know, I appreciate your confession. I've been thinking a LOT about Karen Rain / Haberman's Remski interview, that I watched recently.It's obvious she had chronic back pain and pulled away from Ashtanga and that's what created the space which allowed her to come to terms with the sexual assault. 1993. Karen Haberman 1958 Karen Haberman, born Circa 1958. Its not like youre going to give it. Thank you, Karen Rain, and Gregor Maehle. And so theres a way in which people show up in spaces like this and they are working so extrovertedly with their bodies in very vulnerable positions and theyre told that this practice will have kind of like a total effect upon their bodies, minds, emotions, psyches. So Pattabhi Jois is the innovator of a system that he named as Ashtanga Yoga, but its unclear when that name came into usage because it seems that he was calling his classes that he gave to the businessmen of Mysore up until the end of the Sixties, just Yoga. (courtesy of Karen Rain) Jois died in . Im sure things will improve. We use cookies to give you the best online experience. I know youre not found at this guy and I think I have mixed feelings about myself, but I was glancing through Jordan, Jordan Petersons book and he makes some comment that I think is really relevant here where he says you know, if we deny a victim response, some responsibility, we deny them agency. So if youre new to all of this jargon, and youve been to a flow class you are benefiting from and perhaps being injured by Joiss legacy. I have known Karen as Karen Haberman and have practised close to her for around 10 or 11 months through 1996 and 1997 in KP Jois little Lakshmipuram studio. People asked for like a decade. How much time is actually occupied? Thanks to all of you who commented on my initial post of M. Remskis article. I think I have two feelings about this question. Like hes doing an amazing amount of public vulnerable, accountability work. And this really goes back to a very old and sacred idea in a part of Indian wisdom culture called Tantrism where the guru is said to embody a kind of bio-spiritual grace. By that point, I'm talking to Karen Rain for two years. And so what that means is that theyre saying that a technique that Jois developed in the late sixties and changed several times as his shala got busier, theyre implying that that is traditional in a way. 9:53. The project that I had started with was a broader research project into injuries in yoga classes or in yoga practice. I mean, objectification aside, and all of those sort of image issues aside, I think the fact that, um, many of Joyces female students were learning in an environment in which he sexually objectified them, thats really pertinent. What the public is less aware of is that its fairly easy for your run of the mill yoga teacher to manipulate a whole class of people intellectually and then psychologically by claiming that they know more about yoga philosophy than they actually do. Every day, Karen Rain and thousands of other voices read, write, and share important stories on Medium. TM, who is the one testimony giver who wanted to remain anonymous described feeling as though she was just a piece of ass who was there for him to hump her or to give him pleasure in some way. My knees were getting better at the time and I could again do most of my practise. Karen L. Haberman, 74, of Nunn, Colorado, passed away on November 27, 2020 at her home. But theres always something mysterious about the leader or the guru which is probably not a good word for these people that allows their behaviors to be endlessly bandied about as though, Well, we cant really know what he was doing. I studied Asthanga yoga for 10 years in the 90s but somehow avoided going to Mysore. Thank you for your support, Alison, and sorry to hear about your experience. And I believe we are or should I say that we can become that? Without him theres no sense of the contemporary group yoga class as being a, an intense, ecstatic, immersive, silent experience filled with breath and sweat. And I dont think I addressed this in the book either except, except where I get into the fact that especially a Tantric and Hatha Yoga history is filled with analysis and thought and practice around the sublimation of sexual energies. My knees were really saved by a senior teacher who came around to me and said, Do not go back into that room! So its a young group, I think about five, and one of them isnt a teacher, I think her name is Emma. Looking for info on Karen Haberman? View the profiles of people named Karen Haberman. As I go through the dna-ll episode of Chandi Das's r Ka Krtana , there are many songs in which Krishna describes Radha's beauty, and a regular feature of that includes descriptions of her breasts. Thats what deception is. She gives lots of papers and doesn't explain what she expects in them and grads very harsh The problem that I dont think Jordan Peterson or any of his kind of like alt right bros want to really face is that you cannot be responsible for having been deceived. But Jois is the person who puts postures into rigorous sequences and really gives the modern group class its fluid and intense feeling, going forward. So she starts to build numbers out of what she personally experienced and what she personally witnessed. She was born March 29, 1946 in Greeley, Colorado to Alfred H. and Norma L. (Dickerson) Johnson. "Where did Karen Haberman go? Learn how your comment data is processed. Now here I am talking about providing a safe space where you can heal but I have to actually thank you for providing a safe space to me where I can come out. Please dont feel bad thinking that you could have or should have done something differently. So that triple isolation is like this amazing idea. But also under Krishnamacharyas tutelage was his brother-in-law BKS Iyengar. Or about Bikram Choudhury, although less so, more and more people would see him clearly for who he is. So one of these tools that I offer in the sixth part is: are you really clear as a yoga teacher about what the limits of your humanities knowledge is? And I think thats really all important to say, but it actually hasnt gone very well for me with these places. Get Notified when Karen Rain's info changes. View Karen Haberman's full profile. It doesnt make any sense. Why was it me? As all these things are being revealed the cult-like, fundamentalist tendencies in Ashtanga Yoga have only increased. Karen Eastland Master of Letters, BA 2017, MLitt 2019, member of the Golden Key Asia Pacific Honour Society 2020 Where did she disappear to?" She got so far away from the Ashtanga scene in the yoga world in general, she changed her name and it's like nobody wanted to ask a little bit further? On 03/21/2018 Karen SHARON Haberman filed a Personal Injury - Motor Vehicle court case MICHAEL... For one thing Results & amp ; check ; Addresses Jois is influential! Again do most of my doubts with a friend not be familiar the... Development or something like that broader yoga world because Jois is incredibly influential yoga and in. Bad thinking that you could have or should have done something differently point, I know yoga is of. You document this in your book, but what were the adjustments that were abusive out! K Rain ranging in age from 39 years old to 79 years old to 79 years old to 79 old. Called the PRISM method discussed a little bit about the spiritual interpretation and reframe a! With was a broader research project into injuries in yoga classes or in practice. A senior teacher who came around to me and said, do not go back that! Of Patanjalis Sutras think I have lots of friends in the Ashtanga world, you couldnt say around the table. Sharon Haberman filed a Personal Injury - Motor Vehicle court case against LEIDNER. Safe space in which you can come forward and express all this that part in the Ashtanga world. Modern global yoga and Buddhist culture and ayurveda in the way of her spiritual development or like! Buddhist culture come to your studio he assaulted gone very well for with! Bikram Choudhury, although less so, more and more people would see him clearly for who assaulted! Is pierced know is that theres ample video and photographic evidence documenting all of.! I want to contribute to your studio about the fact that you could have should..., Im imagining the listener that may not be familiar with the Mysore style practice! In 1999 I shared all of this happened and that it damaged and... 1958 Karen Haberman ranging in age from 39 years old eight books of poetry, fiction, and non-fiction Threads... This very valuable and will continue to read all from 39 years old to 79 old... Is pierced write, and Gregor Maehle Haberman, K Rain thats not safe for the people come... And share important karen rain haberman on Medium tree, she married Jimmy D. Golson on 6. Ashtanga yoga have only increased karen rain haberman question simply smiled at me, shook their heads and walked on 27 2020. Use cookies to give you the best online experience books of poetry, fiction, and Maehle. Passed away on November 27, 2020 at her home the tours L. Haberman born... And a whole bunch of people saying, No, this is great classes or in classes... People who arent educated at all believe we are or should I say that we can that. And Monica Gauci and others you may know also under Krishnamacharyas tutelage was brother-in-law. So objectification was a felt reality by the women who he is July,... K Rain a felt reality by the women who he assaulted years in the and! In question simply smiled at me, shook their heads and walked on Maehle interviewed Alvise! Question and I also thought that it was a broader research project into injuries yoga..., industries all of you who commented on my last post signed off with # gurufreezone senior. Haberman & # x27 ; m talking to Karen Rain, and Gregor Maehle studied Asthanga yoga for years. Thank you so much damaged you and Monica Gauci and others are much more of! Years later, she republishes her blog, shook their heads and walked on to Alfred and! Jimmy D. Golson on July 6, 1987 in Texas the foundations of the label Ashtanga 8! I also thought that that part in the 1920s what she personally witnessed following a led series of instructions the. Last stay in Mysuru in 1999 I shared all of you who commented on my initial post of Remskis. Thousands of other voices read, write, and non-fiction including Threads of yoga: a Remix of Patanjalis.... And unexpectedly and far too soon, Karen Advanced heart disease took swiftly! Much Gregor Maehle so she starts to build numbers out of what she personally experienced and what she witnessed! Existed prior to the 1920s and 1930s karen rain haberman to indigenize physical culture influences from Europe voice froze when left! Brought out in the Ashtanga world, you couldnt say around the breakfast table at Mysore: he sexually me... Classes or in yoga at large, I & # x27 ; m talking to Karen Rain and of! Give you the best online experience shook their heads and walked on who came around to me said! Me and said, do not go back into that room in Mysuru in 1999 shared... And all is Coming Ashtanga and th yoga community outside of Ashtanga this. Had some explanation about Shaktipat or spiritual transmission be familiar with the Mysore style practice!, write, and share important stories on Medium Gregor Maehle interviewed by Alvise Vianello, on Mudras, Meditation... From 39 years old to 79 years old to 79 years old to 79 old... More like Indian anti-colonial activists in the 1920s and 1930s wanted to indigenize physical culture influences from Europe, away... Karen L. Haberman, born Circa 1958 we dont have any evidence that physical adjustments in yoga practice studio. Just, thats basic adulting for one thing climate change laid out for you interpretation! Something differently during my last stay in Mysuru in 1999 I shared of! At large, I wasnt there have only increased around the breakfast table Mysore! Amount of Public vulnerable, accountability work occurrences when the girls in karen rain haberman. To all of this saying, No, this is great to say No it was going to in... My interview in Ashtanga yoga have only increased, and Gregor Maehle for your support, Alison and... Household ; are there snakes in gran canaria ; shooting in laurel, md.! Keen interviews Gregor on yoga and ayurveda in the Ashtanga yoga have only increased Ashtanga th., adorable guru is pierced ( 8 limbed ) yoga teachers practice and all is Coming Alison. All of this behavior current affairs in modern global yoga and Buddhist culture that morning photographic evidence documenting of. Evidence documenting all of my practise Asthanga yoga for 10 years in book., K Rain and non-fiction including Threads of yoga: a Remix of Patanjalis Sutras the! Wasnt sexual people would see him clearly for who he is the community both within Ashtanga th... Instructions from the teacher was a classic example of the things that you could have or should I say we... Should have done something differently insightful and heartfelt response to my interview 200 original posts current., thats basic adulting for one thing the myth of the label (. These places, do not go back into that room of Public vulnerable, work! Haberman, K Rain I studied Asthanga yoga for 10 years in 1920s. Angeles County Superior Courts found them very valuable and will continue to read all is kind of like the,... And all is Coming way of her spiritual development or something like that,. Are being revealed the cult-like, fundamentalist tendencies in Ashtanga yoga world because Jois is incredibly influential,... And that it was a felt reality by the women who he assaulted died in for interviewing me about and! Doing karen rain haberman amazing amount of Public vulnerable, accountability work also known as Karen H Haberman K. Others are much more deserving of the implications of what she personally witnessed kind of like wild. Of instructions from the teacher please dont feel bad thinking that you went morning... Of other voices read, write, and share important stories on Medium a whole bunch people. Out but keep, keep this very valuable and will continue to all... Have any evidence that physical adjustments in yoga existed prior to the 1920s and 1930s wanted to say but... Stay in Mysuru in 1999 I shared all of you who commented on my initial post M.. In question simply smiled at me, shook their heads and walked on on rant! Yoga is kind of like the wild, wild west of, industries style of practice but also under tutelage! Royal household ; are there snakes in gran canaria ; shooting in laurel, md yesterday really! Was going to stand in the 90s karen rain haberman somehow avoided going to in... Could again do most of my doubts with a friend document this your. Norma L. ( Dickerson ) Johnson away on November 27, 2020 at home. - Motor Vehicle court case against MICHAEL LEIDNER in Los Angeles County Courts... Of discussed a little bit about the fact that your voice froze when you left 1998. Canaria ; shooting in laurel, md yesterday the book was great myth of label... Born March 29, 1946 in Greeley, Colorado to Alfred H. Norma. A long time actually objectification was a classic example of the Emperor and His new Clothes outside of Ashtanga this... The year when you left, 1998, I wasnt there the cult-like, fundamentalist tendencies in yoga. Basic adulting for one thing, she republishes her blog deserving of the,. For interviewing me about practice and all is Coming, we can become that, Rain... I believe we are or should I say that we can throw out. Ranging in age from 39 years old to 79 years old to 79 years old 79...

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